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+18:58:57 <OdyX> #startmeeting
+18:58:57 <MeetBot> Meeting started Wed Mar 21 18:58:57 2018 UTC. The chair is OdyX. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
+18:58:57 <MeetBot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
+18:58:57 * gwolf runs for coffee
+18:59:00 <OdyX> #topic round of names.
+18:59:06 <gwolf> oh - No, no running for coffee
+18:59:06 * marga Margarita Manterola
+18:59:12 * gwolf Gunnar Wolf
+18:59:13 <ntyni> Niko Tyni
+18:59:17 <fil> Philip Hands
+18:59:19 <smcv> Simon McVittie
+18:59:22 <OdyX> Didier Raboud
+18:59:45 <Mithrandir> Tollef Fog Heen
+19:00:19 <OdyX> bremner are you around ?
+19:00:37 <OdyX> #topic Review of previous meetings' TODOs
+19:01:01 <OdyX> I think they were all done, thanks for that!
+19:01:07 <OdyX> re : http://meetbot.debian.net/debian-ctte/2018/debian-ctte.2018-02-21-19.01.html
+19:01:18 <OdyX> #topic #877024 modemmanager should ask before messing with serial ports
+19:01:30 <OdyX> fil: what's your take here?
+19:01:52 <fil> it's fixed a couple of weeks ago: https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=683839#101
+19:02:05 <fil> (I only noticed this evening)
+19:02:30 <fil> so I guess we can close our bug \o/
+19:02:34 <gwolf> Yay!
+19:02:38 <OdyX> Oh, great.
+19:02:53 <marga> \o/
+19:03:10 <OdyX> FTR, I'm happy with how the process went; not ruling and getting (or having) upstream involved towards a satisfactory solution: great.
+19:03:34 <fil> yeah, me too -- I am happy to do the closing BTW
+19:03:41 <OdyX> #action fil to close #877024 pointing to the #683839 bug closure.
+19:04:34 <OdyX> If there are meta things to discuss, let's do the chat in Additional Business
+19:04:39 <OdyX> #topic #893200 TC Chair election
+19:05:16 <OdyX> As we have a full TC already in 2018, it might make sense to start the rotation already.
+19:05:26 <marga> start the rotation?
+19:05:56 <fil> marga: that's when you take over the chair ;-)
+19:05:57 <OdyX> as my term expires at the end of this year, we're not likely to change the TC chair before I'm no longer on the TC.
+19:05:58 <gwolf> marga: I suggested last meeting that OdyX does not stay as Chair until the Process™ kicks him out
+19:06:00 * fil hides
+19:06:18 * gwolf is still too young as CTTE-member
+19:06:33 <OdyX> so it was suggested that someone else™ would become chair and that I would (of course) stay as helper.
+19:06:52 <marga> Ok
+19:06:59 <marga> So, yeah, I have no problem being chair
+19:07:15 <marga> But I think Didier does a great job :)
+19:07:26 <gwolf> And that's the closest we have to a volunteer to the position ☺
+19:07:31 <OdyX> Despite earlier intentions, not much is scripted, so the chair job is mostly trying to avoid copy-paste mistakes from previous mails, and chairing the meetings "firmly".
+19:08:01 <ntyni> thanks for volunteering marga :)
+19:08:21 <OdyX> and it has this awesome little reward that it's the third-in-line in the power command in Debian :-)
+19:08:28 <ntyni> (and agreed that Didier is doing great too)
+19:08:35 <smcv> "reward"
+19:08:52 <marga> That's the part that's kind of strange
+19:09:06 <marga> Creating the agenda for the meeting and running the meeting is one thing
+19:09:13 <marga> Being third-in-line is a different thing
+19:09:28 <gwolf> ☺ You can just not think about it
+19:09:28 <marga> I find it strange that we conflate the two
+19:09:30 <OdyX> Oh sure. It's more of a bragging-occasion detail when explaining what the TC chair is doing: "together with the Secretary, fill in a vacant DPL's seat".
+19:10:20 <dondelelcaro> AFAIK, we've never needed that power
+19:10:33 <OdyX> we can separate the two "de facto" without changing the constitution. It's good™ though for the TC to know who's damned^Win charge of doing the agenda/meeting invites/chairing.
+19:11:08 <ntyni> there's also the power of the casting vote
+19:11:14 <marga> Ah, yes
+19:11:19 <marga> And that one has been used...
+19:11:22 <OdyX> ah true, it can come systemd-handy
+19:11:33 <gwolf> Right, IMO it's casting > chair-meetings > fill-in-vacant
+19:11:49 <gwolf> fill-in-vacant is a constitutional attribution that has *never* been used
+19:11:53 <gwolf> TTBOMK at least
+19:11:57 <OdyX> `chair-meetings` can be done without explicit power. It just needs doing.
+19:12:03 <marga> I think I remember hearing that it was used once
+19:12:04 <gwolf> Casting is more important than... yes, what OdyX said
+19:12:11 <marga> Branden Robinson's term?
+19:12:34 <marga> Anyway, I feel like I'm de-railing the conversation, but this is something that has bothered me a little bit since I started
+19:12:37 <Mithrandir> so, who would be willing to do the chairing, in addition to OdyX?
+19:12:56 <marga> I'm willing to do the agenda / chairing meetings stuff
+19:12:57 <Mithrandir> (everybody's on the ballot, but electing somebody who's unhappy being the chair's not the best idea)
+19:12:58 <OdyX> I suspect it's much more of a burden on the chair's shoulders when that power needs to be held, than an opportunity, really.
+19:13:05 <gwolf> marga: the meeting does not have too many points to cover, so I'm happy to discuss if needed
+19:13:10 <marga> I'm less sure about the casting vote / replacing the DPL stuff
+19:13:29 <Mithrandir> marga: it's a package, but those other bits are rarely used, so.
+19:13:35 <gwolf> We *need* to have a chair (per constitution)
+19:13:39 <marga> Yes, yes
+19:13:46 <OdyX> the ballot doesn't have FD on purpose :-)
+19:14:06 <gwolf> Even the casting is not much needed - but I feel it as more important...
+19:14:16 <gwolf> OdyX: We could agree to vote in a round so that we hve an eight-way tie.
+19:14:23 <gwolf> (but *now* I'm derailing the discussion)
+19:14:26 <ntyni> hih
+19:14:31 <marga> But then the other thing is that it feels weird to be voting for the person that I want to have the casting vote and stack ranking my fellow TC members
+19:14:37 <OdyX> marga: I'd be honoured to hand the charge over to you. And as "soon-to-leave" TC member, it also makes sense that I don't get to keep the casting vote token much longer either.
+19:14:48 <Mithrandir> my term expires this year, so while I'd be willing to hold the chair, it's not any better than having OdyX
+19:15:36 <ntyni> we can all vote for bremner
+19:15:39 <Mithrandir> marga: *shrug*; that's how elections work.
+19:15:53 <Mithrandir> :-)
+19:16:01 <OdyX> As we agreed to have a public vote anyway, it feels to me we gathered enough data to establish our individual votes, don't we ?
+19:16:19 <Mithrandir> oh, sure.
+19:16:22 * gwolf nods
+19:16:36 <OdyX> As I mentionned in a previous meeting already: please vote sincerely, and (inversely) please don't try to read too much between the lines of the individual votes.
+19:16:42 <gwolf> (I'd still prefer to have an enthusiastic candidate - but we can talk off-meeting)
+19:16:47 <ntyni> as long as voting for marga doesn't make her unhappy...
+19:16:50 <bremner> err. wut?
+19:16:55 <bremner> sorry I'm late
+19:16:58 * Mithrandir dials gwolf's enthusiasm to 11.
+19:17:04 <marga> Wait, let's do this
+19:17:10 <marga> I agree to do the meeting thing
+19:17:12 * gwolf sets modulo to 10
+19:17:17 <marga> Please vote for the other thing
+19:17:41 <OdyX> marga: okay; please #action yourself for that :-)
+19:17:53 <marga> i.e. regardless of the meeting part. Vote for the person that you want to have the casting vote / replacing the DPL power
+19:18:16 <OdyX> #action everyone to vote for the TC chair in #892300 before Sat 24 09:25 UTC.
+19:18:16 <marga> #action Marga will take the secretarial duties (meeting agenda, meeting emails, chairing meetings, etc). Regardless of the outcome of the vote.
+19:18:38 <OdyX> #topic Welcome smcv
+19:18:48 <Mithrandir> welcome smcv!
+19:18:50 * smcv feels appropriately welcomed
+19:18:58 <marga> Wilkommen!
+19:19:01 <OdyX> That topic wasn't on the agenda, but I'm abusing of my meeting chair powers to sneak it in!
+19:19:08 <gwolf> Welcome smcv!
+19:19:16 <gwolf> OdyX: That's a great use of your Powers ☺
+19:19:28 <OdyX> Despite the low number of nominations (which we agreed to make public), I'm thrilled to have you on board smcv.
+19:19:40 <OdyX> Welcome!
+19:19:40 <fil> smcv: Welcome :-)
+19:19:57 <gwolf> I feel we found a great match for the position with you. And I'm honored to share expiration date with you ☺
+19:20:03 <OdyX> #topic Further rounds of nominations
+19:20:28 <OdyX> It's not an emergency just yet, but Mithrandir and myself will leave the TC on Dec 31.
+19:20:48 <fil> there's been a deadly silence from the last batch of randomness ... I'll give that another kick I guess
+19:20:54 <gwolf> fil: You have been handling this dance so far, but I believe it takes quite a bit of effort
+19:20:59 <gwolf> Do you want to share the load?
+19:21:13 <fil> almost none actually -- I have a script I run on master
+19:21:17 <gwolf> (we do require coordination, so that we don't pester the same people)
+19:21:21 <OdyX> The TC doesn't _need_ to fill the two then-vacant seats then, but now that it's a rolling thing (all of us have started our terms under the new constitution), it needs doing.
+19:21:22 <marga> fil, does it make sense to give it another kick right now?
+19:21:29 <gwolf> ok, that's good
+19:22:07 <fil> gwolf: and I have a blacklist that grows, so nobody gets bothered twice
+19:22:23 <marga> I mean if we get nominations now, they would only start their terms in ~9 months...
+19:22:36 <OdyX> Debian (as a whole) also needs to address the lack of nominations; perhaps a discussion to be started at DebConf or in the second half of the year, online.
+19:22:38 <marga> I would rather wait until September/October to start the thing again.
+19:22:44 <gwolf> should the blacklisting also expire..?
+19:23:03 <ntyni> agreed it feels a bit early
+19:23:11 <marga> yeah, I think it might make sense to start a broader discussion later in the year.
+19:23:13 <gwolf> OdyX: FWIW I found the "Meet the TC" session at DebConf as most convincing push for getting on board
+19:23:19 <fil> I don't see why it should (especially since I declared that it wouldn't in the spam)
+19:23:24 <gwolf> I think we can delay until then at least
+19:23:30 <gwolf> OK
+19:23:49 <marga> FYI: I'm almost certainly not going to be at DC18.
+19:23:51 <OdyX> #topic Additional Business
+19:24:03 <OdyX> I won't make it to DebConf18 either
+19:24:13 <fil> sure, I was thinking we had a slot to fill soon for some reason, no point bothering people now
+19:24:20 <smcv> not me either, keeping up my record of 1 debconf per decade
+19:24:36 <OdyX> smcv: cool we could meet in DebConf17 then :)
+19:24:42 <fil> I ought to be there (hopefully with the family :-) )
+19:24:43 <gwolf> I will be there. Got my tickets and all.
+19:25:01 <gwolf> My family will be close to 20,000Km away ☺
+19:25:06 <ntyni> not quite sure if I can make DebConf but probably not
+19:25:52 <gwolf> Anyway - I think we can decide to leave further nominations until ~ DebConf
+19:25:59 <OdyX> Works for me
+19:26:03 <fil> me too
+19:26:04 <gwolf> and we will later see if we have a TC session at DebConf
+19:26:16 <gwolf> I'd like to if it's enough of us...
+19:26:20 <OdyX> (Not really my problem anymore either :->)
+19:26:34 <smcv> OdyX: you mentioned a possibility of having meta things to discuss around #877024?
+19:26:46 <OdyX> There's the "traditional" "meet the TC BoF" that is great to keep
+19:26:49 * gwolf nominates OdyX for 2020 :-P
+19:27:17 <fil> that's mean
+19:27:50 <OdyX> smcv: ah yes, right. Context is that we frequently discussed how to initially address incoming issues, and how quickly/firmly we want to reach a "formal TC decision".
+19:28:35 <smcv> looking at that bug from the outside, I must admit my thought was "why is this with the ctte?"
+19:28:45 <OdyX> my understanding is that the current TC is (IMHO rightfully) reluctant to rule unless all other venues for consensus have been tried and failed.
+19:29:31 <OdyX> I seem to remember that Mithrandir wanted (or was pushed) to write down a "how the TC intends to address incoming issues" sort-of checklist.
+19:30:26 <fil> having gone ahead and done it recently, I think that if anyone thinks a bug is pointless/misdirected they should just go ahead and close them -- after all it's not a problem to reopen them is the consensus turns out not to exist
+19:30:27 <OdyX> Then fil noted that https://www.debian.org/devel/tech-ctte was aplenty, and mostly just needed to be used by TC members and my submitters as checklist.
+19:30:42 <fil> s/is/if/
+19:31:47 <fil> I also think a "You've not done any of steps 1..3 -- try again" closure would be fine too
+19:31:58 <OdyX> I concur.
+19:32:56 <OdyX> If there's not more coming :-)
+19:32:59 <OdyX> #endmeeting
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projects / debian-ctte.git / commitdiff