--- /dev/null
+19:00:32 <bremner> #startmeeting
+19:00:32 <MeetBot> Meeting started Wed Apr 19 19:00:32 2017 UTC. The chair is bremner. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
+19:00:32 <MeetBot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
+19:00:37 <OdyX> bremner: there, thank you.
+19:00:42 <OdyX> Agenda is https://anonscm.debian.org/cgit/collab-maint/debian-ctte.git/plain/meetings/agenda.txt
+19:01:03 <OdyX> Let's start with the round of names, to see who's here.
+19:01:06 <OdyX> Didier Raboud
+19:01:12 <marga> Margarita Manterola
+19:01:13 <hartmans> Sam Hartman
+19:01:18 <keithp> Keith Packard
+19:01:21 <bremner> David Bremner
+19:02:01 <OdyX> Mithrandir, fil ?
+19:02:56 <Mithrandir> Tollef Fog Heen
+19:03:09 <OdyX> #topic Next Meetings?
+19:03:19 <nthykier> NB: OdyX you are not a chair
+19:03:25 <marga> I think bremner needs to make you chair
+19:03:29 <bremner> oh crap.
+19:03:32 <OdyX> That's ironic. :-P
+19:03:37 <bremner> #chair OdyX
+19:03:37 <MeetBot> Current chairs: OdyX bremner
+19:03:39 <OdyX> #topic Next Meetings?
+19:03:58 <OdyX> #info We decided on Third Wednesday in a month, 19 UTC
+19:04:31 <OdyX> bremner: you're the most concerned, as newcomer; is that something you can generally work with?
+19:04:36 <bremner> yes
+19:04:37 <hartmans> bremner: was mumbling about that being problematicish this month.
+19:04:42 <hartmans> Will that work going forward?
+19:04:49 <bremner> going forward it's fine
+19:04:55 <bremner> atm I'm supervising an exam
+19:05:00 <bremner> "supervising"
+19:05:09 <OdyX> Good. Let's move on then
+19:05:17 <OdyX> #topic Welcome David Bremner!
+19:05:31 <OdyX> I actually entirely forgot that, but, congrats bremner, and welcome!
+19:05:39 <bremner> o/
+19:05:47 <marga> \o/
+19:06:10 <OdyX> #topic Review of previous meetings' TODOs
+19:06:27 <OdyX> Mithrandir had 857257 to close, afaik done.
+19:06:28 <hartmans> aaaargh. Did I still forget to close the stupid javascript bug?
+19:06:42 <OdyX> marga had 846002 to close; where does that stand?
+19:06:53 <marga> I didn't do it :-/
+19:07:02 <marga> I didn't do any one of the things I said I would :-/
+19:07:17 <OdyX> don't worry; let's focus on solution-finding, rather than fingerpointing.
+19:07:36 <OdyX> marga: is it something you want to get done, or would rather pass on to someone else?
+19:07:54 <marga> I don't have any particular interest in doing it myself
+19:08:00 <marga> It just needs to get done by someone
+19:08:12 <marga> I volunteered because I thought I would have time, but it turned out I didn't
+19:08:49 <OdyX> Ack. Let's discuss it at that agenda item then.
+19:09:01 <OdyX> fil pushed the new member process, thanks to him.
+19:09:15 <OdyX> And I didn't move a single iota on the systemd/policy/etc things, sorry for that.
+19:09:22 <OdyX> #topic #860520 Voting for TC Chair
+19:09:45 <OdyX> That's merely on the agenda because it's an open bug.
+19:10:00 <OdyX> #action everyone to vote on #860520 (TC Chair).
+19:10:07 * marga nods
+19:10:42 <OdyX> (besides the funky hat, it's actually a quite administrative job; and I'm pondering to invest some time to automate more of that job)
+19:10:46 <OdyX> Let's address that in the varia.
+19:10:58 <OdyX> #topic #850887 Decide proper solution for binutils' mips* bug
+19:11:02 <Mithrandir> who, if any, want to be chair? Electing somebody who doesn't have time to shoulder the burden is something we should avoid.
+19:11:23 <keithp> pretty clear I don't have the bandwidth at this point
+19:11:42 <OdyX> #topic #860520 Voting for TC Chair
+19:11:58 <OdyX> Mithrandir: I'm fine with the workload, currently.
+19:12:05 <marga> I wouldn't mind if I had the time, which I don't.
+19:12:09 <bremner> since we're saying who not, I'd rather not.
+19:12:40 <OdyX> It's just a quite boring job (update the agenda manually, send meeting reminders [forgot this time], update the ical by hand, etc.
+19:12:47 <OdyX> so it's not motivating.
+19:12:55 <OdyX> And it's mostly about doing things all of us could do.
+19:13:38 <OdyX> But as mentionned, I'm willing to invest slightly in tooling to ease that burden (such as auto-generate an agenda somewhere, send automated mails, etc.
+19:13:48 <Mithrandir> nod. I'm myself at -0-ish. I don't really have the bandwidth, but I'm hardly alone in that.
+19:13:56 <bremner> could the "organizing the next meeting" part rotate?
+19:14:18 <hartmans> bremner: You could, although the impact if someone drops the ball is significant.
+19:14:23 <OdyX> Barring a more motivated candidate, I guess I'm the least horrible placeholder.
+19:14:37 <bremner> hartmans: ack.
+19:14:56 <OdyX> (not that I think any of you would do a horrible job, sorry if my english went through badly).
+19:15:02 <hartmans> But a chair could certainly delegate almost all of the job (except for the casting vote)
+19:15:21 <OdyX> Actually, the casting vote is the only thing in the constitution about what the chair should do.
+19:15:49 <OdyX> The rest is administrativia that falls in the hands of the chair as default go-to person I suspect.
+19:16:03 <bremner> is there someone who'd be more willing to be secretary than chair?
+19:16:37 <keithp> yeah, don used to act as secretary, but not chair
+19:16:45 <OdyX> That's an interesting perspective.
+19:17:06 <bremner> I'd be willing to consider next time the question came up
+19:17:31 <OdyX> I see the chair position as rather honorary (and the poor soul that needs to break ties when absolutely needed), so it's a nice addon for some secretary work.
+19:18:31 <OdyX> Let's move on, and maybe move that (important) discussion to list.
+19:18:59 <OdyX> Now to the three other topics:
+19:19:02 <OdyX> #topic #850887 Decide proper solution for binutils' mips* bug
+19:19:15 <hartmans> I'm busy closing it now
+19:19:19 <OdyX> Good, thank you.
+19:19:28 <OdyX> #topic #846002 blends-tasks must not be priority:important
+19:19:42 <OdyX> This one also died by expiration, and needs closing.
+19:20:17 <marga> Died by expiration?
+19:20:20 <marga> I thought we voted
+19:20:27 <OdyX> ah yes, indeed, sorry.
+19:20:29 <marga> This is the one that I had to close and failed to do.
+19:21:06 <marga> I should have time this weekend.
+19:21:10 <OdyX> marga: would it help if we drafted an closing message just after the meeting?
+19:21:42 <OdyX> I could give a hand this weekend, modulo coordination, if that helped.
+19:21:45 <marga> Not really, I haven't had dinner and had a very long day at work. But I have Saturday free for Debian work.
+19:22:17 <OdyX> Great, thanks!
+19:22:36 <marga> I'll draft the closing message and ask for review before sending.
+19:22:50 <OdyX> #action marga to draft closing message to #846002 this week-end
+19:22:57 <OdyX> #topic #839172 TC decision regarding #741573 menu policy not reflected yet
+19:23:12 <OdyX> This one is basically archived, and could be a bug against Policy.
+19:23:36 <OdyX> I have it on my TODO; but it needs serious involvment.
+19:23:36 <hartmans> i plan to include the following statement in the mips closure.
+19:23:47 <OdyX> I want to try tackle that at DebConf.
+19:23:59 <hartmans> I want to make sure no one things I'm so off base that this is problematic even as my individual opinion (and to collect any other immediate comments)
+19:24:02 <keithp> OdyX: that seems like a good plan; get wording proposed and push the change then?
+19:24:02 <hartmans> As an individual, I note that this is the second significant issue
+19:24:02 <hartmans> brought before the TC in the stretch time frame with regard to the
+19:24:02 <hartmans> toolchain.
+19:24:02 <hartmans> Communication was somewhat challenging on both issues.
+19:24:02 <hartmans> The project as a whole might want to consider how we can better balance
+19:24:03 <hartmans> these issues and get folks working on the toolchain the resources they
+19:24:03 <hartmans> need both to produce an effective toolchain and to communicate with the
+19:24:05 <hartmans> rest of the project.
+19:24:05 <hartmans> The committee is of course available for a resource if useful in such a
+19:24:07 <hartmans> discussion.
+19:24:49 <OdyX> hartmans: looks good to me.
+19:24:56 <Mithrandir> I have no problems with that
+19:25:10 <keithp> yeah, recognizing the meta issue and trying to work to avoid problems in the future. very nice.
+19:25:31 <bremner> with the caveat that I wasn't "here", it looks ok
+19:25:55 <OdyX> bremner: that will always be a cornercase
+19:25:58 <hartmans> ok, unless marga has something in the next minute or so will send
+19:26:06 <hartmans> sorry to disrupt policy
+19:26:22 <marga> Sorry, looks good to me as well
+19:26:50 <OdyX> hartmans: it's hardly disrupted. That point is just a monthly nag to get me started (but it's a scary, huge and complicated subject that needs english-writing skills).
+19:26:57 <OdyX> #topic #836127 New TC Members
+19:27:08 <OdyX> We still have one seat free, and we're in mid-April.
+19:27:20 <OdyX> I entirely agree with hartmans that we're factually slow.
+19:27:27 <marga> Yeah, I've been meaning to write back to the candidates with something
+19:27:36 <marga> But in order to do that, I need to know with what
+19:27:41 <OdyX> And I've already phrased that concern in the past: we're spending _a lot_ of our energy to find new people.
+19:27:48 <Mithrandir> what do we want the process for the next candidate to look like?
+19:28:32 <OdyX> And do we want to provide transparency to bremner about the other candidates (and use that set of people as the pool for the new seat), or do we want to start afresh?
+19:28:37 <hartmans> Mithrandir: For me to feel better about the process, I'd like it to be less of a popularity/name recognition contest.
+19:29:23 <hartmans> That is, I'd like to figure out better criteria on which we could judge candidate contributions and judge how effective they would be at 1) solving the kind of problems that come before the tc and 2) not dropping the ball.
+19:29:39 <bremner> so stop 0, job description?
+19:29:44 <hartmans> While asking for a pony I'd like to run the process fast enough that the candidate is still psyched about joining the TC when that happens.
+19:29:44 <bremner> err, step
+19:29:48 <OdyX> Also, as a matter of fact, if I got my calculus correct, keithp's term expires at the end of 2017, but mine and Mithrandir only in 2018, which means we only get one new seat at the end of this year.
+19:30:13 <keithp> that's a help at least :-)
+19:30:23 <OdyX> keithp: thank you for that :-P
+19:30:27 <Mithrandir> hartmans: I agree with your concerns. I don't know how we'd go about judging those skills/features up front.
+19:31:18 <marga> I'm on the same camp
+19:31:25 <OdyX> I'm wondering if the "TC nominates new member" doesn't conflict explictely with our willingness to get more diversity from the project.
+19:31:51 <hartmans> Mithrandir: We must know someone who's gone through studying leadership selection processes to maximie diversity and good results.
+19:31:54 <marga> I tried to find whatever data I could from the candidates that would help us find candidates with those qualities, but it's hard.
+19:31:54 <OdyX> (but that's a constitutional amendment discussion, maybe for another time)
+19:32:04 <hartmans> I will admit that all I've been exposed to is problems no real good solutions.
+19:32:28 <keithp> OdyX: we can use whatever process we want to select candidates
+19:32:30 <bremner> you ask candidates why they think they'd be good at the job?
+19:32:31 <hartmans> marga: And I think you did better than I imagined possible.
+19:32:43 <bremner> s/you/we could/
+19:32:48 <OdyX> keithp: good point.
+19:32:49 <keithp> yes, the last round was amazing in comparison
+19:32:50 <hartmans> I think it's almost impossible with a process this closed to get good data
+19:32:55 <Mithrandir> hartmans: pointing out the problems is the first step, so I'm thankful for you doing that, even if neither of us has any ready solutions. :-)
+19:33:44 <hartmans> however, I think OdyX asked an important question: do we go forward and fill from the candidates we have or do we cgo through another round.
+19:33:59 <hartmans> I'll note that we have more candidates and better data on them now that at any previous time I've been on the TC.
+19:34:11 <OdyX> It's quite hard to go more public with candidacies, as we then order and pick people out of a set, for quite personal reasons.
+19:34:17 <marga> I think we should pick a second candidate from the list of candidates that we have.
+19:34:21 <hartmans> So, I'm somewhat tempted to fill from candidates before us.
+19:34:35 <OdyX> That's my thinking too.
+19:35:02 <hartmans> OdyX: The whole space is hard:-)
+19:35:30 <OdyX> We would therefore share the private discussion about all non-bremner candidates to bremner, right ?
+19:35:31 <keithp> marga: I agree, we have a good list
+19:35:38 <keithp> OdyX: right
+19:35:48 <marga> Alright, so I'll mail the remaining candidates with an update and say that we are still deciding on the second position
+19:35:49 <Mithrandir> it feels a bit like stringing them along, but we could ask them if they're still interested.
+19:36:06 <marga> And ask them if they are still interested.
+19:36:31 <bremner> as a technical issue, I'm not on the private alias yet.
+19:36:31 <OdyX> I think it's important to tell them "with which sauce they're being swallowed" (don't know if that translates very good away from french).
+19:36:53 <OdyX> #action OdyX to check with DSA about bremner on the private alias.
+19:36:54 <keithp> OdyX: a nice metaphor in any case :-)
+19:37:04 <Mithrandir> if somebody files an RT ticket to get bremner added, I can do it.
+19:37:12 <Mithrandir> but I'd rather not both file the ticket and solve it
+19:37:45 <OdyX> what I mean by that, is that I think we owe them transparency about what is happening (either we close the round with thanks, or we keep them in the decision basket).
+19:37:59 <OdyX> #action OdyX to file an RT ticket to get bremner added.
+19:38:18 <OdyX> I'm wondering if we don't also owe that transparency to the project.
+19:39:05 <marga> Yes, I agree we owe them transparency, and that's what I was saying I'll do. It seemed the consensus was that we keep them in the basket?
+19:39:19 <OdyX> Yes; we're in agreement.
+19:39:31 <hartmans> only if it's a cream sauce:-)
+19:39:41 <OdyX> do we welcome / call for new nominations ?
+19:39:51 <OdyX> and do we announce that on d-d-a ?
+19:39:58 <bremner> what's the downside?
+19:40:11 <bremner> aside from more boring work for OdyX ;)
+19:40:25 <marga> bremner, waiting until all the nominations are in to discuss
+19:40:31 <bremner> ack.
+19:41:19 <marga> I don't know the answer. We could welcome new nominations until EOM?
+19:41:19 <OdyX> I think (although I dislike the concept) that we're better off with deciding in the current set, especially if we have another seat opening in 8 months.
+19:42:47 <Mithrandir> I'd rather we just work with what we have, if we follow a similar timeline as last time we'd be looking at new nominations in 4-5 months
+19:42:57 * marga nods
+19:43:18 <OdyX> ack. I can draft a mail to d-d-a with that, and marga to the candidates ?
+19:43:41 <marga> OdyX, I'm confused, what's the mail to d-d-a going to say?
+19:43:53 <bremner> should we have a nomination push at debconf for the next ones?
+19:44:02 <OdyX> marga: that we're deciding out of the current set?
+19:44:15 <marga> OdyX, doesn't sound worth announcing to me
+19:44:18 <OdyX> I'm fine with saying nothing too, or just to debian-ctte@
+19:44:24 <marga> It's not like people care that much :)
+19:44:42 <marga> Yeah, -ctte would be fine
+19:44:46 <bremner> agree
+19:44:49 <marga> #action Marga will email all other candidates informing them of the state, asking if they are still interested
+19:45:42 <OdyX> #action OdyX will publish the plan to debian-ctte@
+19:46:17 <OdyX> #action OdyX to Bounce the non-bremner mails to bremner.
+19:47:22 <OdyX> #topic Additional Business
+19:47:31 <OdyX> Let's start with DebConf17.
+19:47:46 <Mithrandir> I'll be there
+19:47:50 <OdyX> I've filed a talk proposal for the TC presentation, but that's a detail.
+19:47:55 <OdyX> Who's going to be there?
+19:47:56 <Mithrandir> but not for much/any of debcamp
+19:48:02 <bremner> I will be there
+19:48:03 <OdyX> (It's been immensely useful last year)
+19:48:03 <marga> I'm planning on being there, haven't done the visa dance yet.
+19:48:11 <hartmans> I think I'll be there. I have not booked travel yet.
+19:48:16 <hartmans> I'm trying to drag my boss along.
+19:48:24 <OdyX> Booked travel, need to check for visa.
+19:49:03 <keithp> I've got a room booked, will book travel closer to the event
+19:49:17 <OdyX> Good. fil is a regular DebConf'er, I expect hir to be there
+19:49:30 <OdyX> Now about administrativia
+19:49:36 <hartmans> keithp: Would you mind forwarding me the hotel info? It'd be nice for me to stay at a hotel with other debian folk
+19:49:46 <OdyX> What part of what I used to be doing is really useful ?
+19:50:06 <marga> This sounds like a trick question.
+19:50:08 <OdyX> We have the agenda.ics, the meetings/agenda.txt and I've manually sent reminder mails with lame copy-pastes.
+19:50:32 <hartmans> I found the on-irc reminders fairly useful. I found the agenda updates useful. I didn't find the reminder emails that useful.
+19:50:34 <OdyX> marga: I'm genuinely interested, and I failed this time because $work and $VAC
+19:50:35 <marga> I think all of those are useful. I think the most useful one is the agenda, as this has allowed me to chair meetings when you were not there.
+19:51:43 <OdyX> There also used to be updates to the Debian website: https://www.debian.org/devel/tech-ctte but there was nothing since 2015
+19:51:58 <OdyX> and we have the history of past bugs on the git.
+19:53:09 <OdyX> Since weasel mentionned it yesterday, the idea has been tinkering in my brain to make use of someting like ikiwiki (as dpl.debian.org or dsa.debian.org).
+19:53:32 <OdyX> It would be basically the same content, but at least on a public, web-friendly place.
+19:53:52 <Mithrandir> agenda.txt and ics + aroudn-meeting-start reminder are the usual bits around meetings that are useful for me
+19:53:56 <marga> I'm not a fan of ikiwiki, but I guess that if someone else is doing the work, I wouldn't mind :)
+19:54:44 <hartmans> i'm a huge fan of ikiwiki over debian web cvs and wml:-)
+19:55:01 <OdyX> The fact that the website documentation is not up-to-date with regards to our decisions irritates me, and I'd love for us to have something better than pure git.
+19:55:24 <OdyX> (and I'm not irritated by anyone in particular, I'm saying it's a bad state of fact)
+19:55:27 <marga> Makes sense. I once tried to use BTS's tags, and they were all mostly wrong.
+19:56:37 <OdyX> Okay. What I get from that round of advice is that the agenda.txt is good (but could be auto-generated from the BTS) …
+19:57:01 <OdyX> That the agenda.ics is useful (but, as we agree for a regular schedule, could be auto-generated)
+19:57:29 <OdyX> that the meeting reminders are also useful (but could also be automated)
+19:57:40 <OdyX> Mailing list vs pingall ?
+19:58:29 <marga> I like both
+19:58:55 <OdyX> I suspect we can only ping the TC members though.
+19:58:57 <marga> I'm usually around on IRC, but not when travelling, so the mail reminder is useful for then.
+19:59:05 <marga> Yeah, I guess that would make sense.
+19:59:16 <OdyX> Okay, I will spend some energy for these things, to reduce the administrative burden somewhat.
+19:59:29 <OdyX> Now there's another idea: what about a kanban board?
+19:59:45 <OdyX> The "todos from last IRC meeting" are way too easily lost.
+19:59:52 <marga> I'd be willing to try it, not sure how accessible it would be for hartmans
+20:00:43 <OdyX> On the other hand, that brings me to another varia: our (collective) responsiveness.
+20:00:47 <hartmans> I am not familiar with kanban
+20:01:10 <OdyX> If we need tooling to remind us of 4-months old TODO items, then maybe the tooling is the wrong answer.
+20:01:35 <OdyX> hartmans: it's basically a TODO | DOING | DONE board with items and assignees.
+20:01:52 <marga> hartmans, it's a tool for tracking work, who's doing it and it what state is done. There are several implementations of it, mostly web based.
+20:02:01 <hartmans> website? or gui app with client server protocol?
+20:02:14 <hartmans> web based are likely to be ok
+20:02:22 <bremner> a crude attempt at org-mode in a browser
+20:02:27 <hartmans> Speaking of responsiveness: I'm getting dragged into a debugging session at work
+20:02:46 <marga> Yeah, we are over the hour
+20:02:49 <marga> We should close up
+20:03:05 <OdyX> Indeed, sorry.
+20:03:22 <OdyX> Let's first try to get these few bugs closed, and a new member nominated.
+20:03:27 <OdyX> And get stretch out!
+20:03:33 <marga> Indeed :)
+20:03:42 <OdyX> #endmeeting
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