--- /dev/null
+17:00:39 <dondelelcaro> #startmeeting
+17:00:39 <MeetBot> Meeting started Thu Sep 25 17:00:39 2014 UTC. The chair is dondelelcaro. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
+17:00:39 <MeetBot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
+17:00:40 <keithp> good morning
+17:00:47 <dondelelcaro> #topic Who is here?
+17:00:50 <dondelelcaro> Don Armstrong
+17:00:56 <keithp> Keith Packard
+17:01:05 <dondelelcaro> keithp: morning!
+17:01:10 <keithp> Hola!
+17:02:20 <keithp> As usual, the impeding meeting encouraged me to do some ctte work this morning :-)
+17:02:24 <dondelelcaro> heh
+17:02:47 <dondelelcaro> trying to identify the rest of our participants
+17:03:29 <cjwatson> argh sorry, I can't make it tonight, Kirsten has karate practice and I have neglected to realise far enough in advance to arrange alternate childcare cover
+17:03:37 <dondelelcaro> cjwatson: no worries
+17:03:50 <keithp> cjwatson: you'll have more fun than we will anyways
+17:05:05 <dondelelcaro> I think I've pinged everyone now; rra isn't on IRC right now
+17:05:21 <keithp> bdale was around an hour ago
+17:06:12 <dondelelcaro> Diziet just told me that he won't be able to make it
+17:07:44 <keithp> pinged bdale via sms
+17:07:58 <dondelelcaro> well, I'll at least get the next meeting on the calendar, and I'll try to at least get the agenda into shape
+17:08:11 <dondelelcaro> #topic Next Meeting?
+17:08:48 <keithp> meetings.ics has a bug in it at present
+17:09:03 <dondelelcaro> the next meeting is currently scheduled for the 30th;
+17:09:11 <keithp> that works for me
+17:09:21 <dondelelcaro> keithp: ah, wouldn't surprise me... I hand write it
+17:09:30 <keithp> shall I push the fix?
+17:09:34 <dondelelcaro> absolutely
+17:10:09 <bdale> Bdale Garbee
+17:10:17 <bdale> sorry I'm late .. packing for move this Sat is underway!
+17:10:23 <keithp> bdale: I figured as much!
+17:10:39 <keithp> cjwatson and Diziet both send regrets
+17:10:48 <bdale> ok
+17:10:55 <KGB-3> \ f\ 303Keith Packard\ f \ 305master\ f 40ee6c3 \ 306debian-ctte\ f \ 310meetings.ics\ f Fix typo in meetings.ics
+17:11:02 <dondelelcaro> next meeting is currently date -d 'Thu Oct 30 2014 17:00 UTC'
+17:11:29 <dondelelcaro> I think that might be after the end of DST in europe, so it might switch the time slightly
+17:11:41 <bdale> 10/30 is an all-day LF board meeting, but I can probably participate in an IRC meeting here in parallel
+17:11:50 <dondelelcaro> OK
+17:12:26 <dondelelcaro> #agreed next meeting is currently date -d 'Thu Oct 30 2014 17:00 UTC'
+17:12:45 <dondelelcaro> I guess since there are three of us, we can at least go through the agenda items and get things back up to date
+17:12:48 <dondelelcaro> #topic #717076 Decide between libjpeg-turbo and libjpeg8 et al.
+17:13:16 <dondelelcaro> I think this was taken care of, so it probably shouldn't be on the agenda
+17:13:28 <dondelelcaro> #topic #636783 constitution: super-majority bug
+17:14:33 <dondelelcaro> I think the last thing that happened here was two action items for Diziet
+17:14:44 <dondelelcaro> #action Diziet to integrate text as asked by Matthew V
+17:14:53 <dondelelcaro> #action Diziet to put resolution integrated text into git
+17:15:14 <dondelelcaro> an[y
+17:15:15 <keithp> agreed
+17:15:19 <dondelelcaro> any other comments here?
+17:15:27 <bdale> nope
+17:15:31 <keithp> nope
+17:16:12 <dondelelcaro> #topic #636783 constitution: casting vote
+17:16:26 <dondelelcaro> also needing Diziet action
+17:16:33 <bdale> I kind of have the set of constitution items lumped together in my mind .. skip past them?
+17:16:37 <dondelelcaro> #action Diziet to draft casting vote to 3 options: change to 9 with casting, change to 9 without casting, FD
+17:16:44 <dondelelcaro> yeah, I'll skip them
+17:16:55 <dondelelcaro> I just want to hit them and shove the action items back in
+17:17:02 <dondelelcaro> #topic #636783 constitution: minimum discussion period
+17:17:03 <bdale> I look forward to Diziet's next round of proposals, but no need to flail in the meantime
+17:17:11 <bdale> ok
+17:17:18 <dondelelcaro> #action diziet to draft a proposal
+17:17:28 <dondelelcaro> #topic #636783 constitution: TC member retirement/rollover
+17:17:39 <dondelelcaro> #action diziet to draft a proposal (actually for this one; the previous was skipped)
+17:17:56 <dondelelcaro> #topic #636783 constitution: TC chair retirement/rollover
+17:18:17 <dondelelcaro> #action Diziet to draft TC election automatic trigger on new TC member, and manual trigger by another TC member ?
+17:18:22 <dondelelcaro> #topic #681419 Depends: foo | foo-nonfree
+17:18:42 <dondelelcaro> I think vorlon called for votes on this
+17:19:04 <keithp> I voted
+17:19:06 <dondelelcaro> ah, right
+17:19:08 <dondelelcaro> I voted too
+17:19:18 <dondelelcaro> I'll clean this one up and announce the decision
+17:19:27 <keithp> sounds right
+17:19:30 <dondelelcaro> #action dondelelcaro to finalize voting for #671418 and announce decision
+17:19:53 <dondelelcaro> #topic #741573 menu systems and mime-support
+17:20:15 <dondelelcaro> keithp: I think this one is yours currently, right?
+17:20:23 <keithp> yes
+17:20:31 <keithp> I wrote up a list of potential ballot items and posted that
+17:20:58 <keithp> I would like to get consensus on that list, so I think we can make progress here today by deleting ones that we don't like
+17:22:40 <keithp> can the two of you see that email? (it's also in the repo under bug 741573)
+17:23:26 <dondelelcaro> keithp_alternatives.txt, right?
+17:23:31 <keithp> yes
+17:24:36 <bdale> reading
+17:25:09 <dondelelcaro> I think that #1, #6, and #7 probably aren't necessary
+17:25:17 <keithp> first question is whether those capture the range of potential ballot items
+17:25:23 <bdale> yeah, 7 is just like 8
+17:25:44 <keithp> bdale: it's slightly different in that we would say we weren't interested in ever deciding
+17:25:44 <dondelelcaro> I think so; there's not something that I would want to vote for that isn't there
+17:26:11 <bdale> I see your point, but I don't think that's practically different than FD
+17:26:24 <bdale> and I also don't think it'd be the winning option, so it just feels like clutter
+17:26:38 <keithp> agreed, I think we should remove it
+17:26:47 <bdale> so you don't have an 'allow either, prefer desktop' kind of entry
+17:26:48 <keithp> I just wanted to have it listed for completeness
+17:27:12 <bdale> I guess that's sort of like 3
+17:27:57 <bdale> bounding 'require' in the context of policy might help me think about it
+17:28:01 <keithp> depends on if you think recommendations are ever listened to, or if we need 'requires' to have any effect
+17:28:34 <bdale> ok
+17:30:03 <keithp> So, the other big question is what the scope of the menu systems should be; right now, the policy says 'anything that runs without arguments' should have a menu entry
+17:31:05 <dondelelcaro> yeah; I think that's a mistake unless there is a command line menu I don't know about
+17:31:16 <bdale> which is clearly the opinion of 'menu' advocates, but I'm not there
+17:31:37 <keithp> well, both menu and desktop allow for entries for applications that only run in a terminal
+17:32:13 <keithp> so, one option would be to define a policy for applications that *want* a menu entry, and a separate recommendation for the class of applications which should want a menu entry
+17:32:23 <bdale> but isn't that meant in the desktop case for things where a terminal window needs to be launched to run it, not so much for a "things you might want a command line menu for"?
+17:32:38 <bdale> ok
+17:32:42 <bdale> sure, we could use it that way
+17:32:43 <keithp> I think that's nominally the same list
+17:33:24 <keithp> policy currently says that applications that run without options 'should' have a menu entry
+17:33:44 <keithp> I think that's about right; gives packagers the right to *not* have a menu entry if they think it's silly
+17:33:53 <keithp> while generally encouraging menu entries
+17:34:07 <bdale> ok, I agree
+17:34:13 <dondelelcaro> ok; that seems fine to me too
+17:35:05 <keithp> moreover, the issue brought to the tech-ctte was solely about how to provide menu entries, not when to provide entries, so we'd be increasing the scope of the answer by doing that
+17:35:46 <dondelelcaro> right
+17:36:02 <dondelelcaro> and I think policy has it right currently, and if someone on the CTTE disagrees, we can always go to policy to change it
+17:36:16 <keithp> iwj has pushed a draft of 4)
+17:37:03 <keithp> If that's as far as he thinks we need to go in that direction, perhaps we can not have 1-3 on the ballot?
+17:38:01 <keithp> so, require some menu, require desktop/allow menu, require desktop/disallow menu, fd
+17:39:03 <bdale> pass that by iwj, and if he's ok with that list, we go with it?
+17:39:09 <dondelelcaro> sounds good to me
+17:39:30 <bdale> if he wants a 'require menu' option, I'm happy to have it on the ballot
+17:39:33 <keithp> ok. I'll write up a ballot with his content for that option, new content for 5) and my content for 6
+17:39:45 <bdale> ok
+17:40:15 <dondelelcaro> #action keithp to write up a ballot with iwj's content for that option, new content for 5) and my content for 6
+17:40:32 <dondelelcaro> #topic #762194 Automatic switch to systemd on wheezy->jessie upgrades
+17:40:34 <keithp> How long to wait with that before asking for a vote? Or should I pend that until the next meeting?
+17:40:36 <aba> sorry, very late
+17:40:59 <dondelelcaro> keithp: probably post it to the list, then see if anyone responds in a week?
+17:41:04 <keithp> sounds good
+17:41:15 <dondelelcaro> (less if you get positive responses)
+17:41:17 <dondelelcaro> aba: no worries
+17:41:46 <dondelelcaro> from what I can tell from the discussion on list, most people seem agreed that we shouldn't automatically switch to systemd on upgrade
+17:42:00 <dondelelcaro> vorlon sends his regrets too
+17:42:01 <keithp> I have to agree with that; it can really break things
+17:42:06 <bdale> I agree
+17:42:23 <bdale> default for new installs != auto-upgrading
+17:42:24 <aba> same as e.g. with exim3 to exim4
+17:43:08 <keithp> what do you do to people running gnome though?
+17:43:20 <dondelelcaro> dunno
+17:43:24 <bdale> that's the big question
+17:43:30 <keithp> 'sorry for your poor life choices'?
+17:43:39 <bdale> harsh
+17:43:47 <jcristau> i don't understand why we wouldn't want to get systemd on upgrade
+17:43:55 <bdale> the last discussion I read was about how to prompt in such cases and what to say
+17:43:56 <aba> Install a new metapackage with pulls in systemd etc on upgrade?
+17:44:07 <aba> (or ask an question or whatever)
+17:44:10 <keithp> jcristau: it means a huge interruption in how you interact with the machine
+17:44:26 <keithp> and may easily break locally installed software or custom hacks in sysvinit
+17:44:41 <jcristau> does it? i haven't changed the way i interact with my machine...
+17:44:54 <keithp> You can't just edit files in /etc/init.d and expect things to work
+17:45:21 <bdale> so I've moved a number of machines to systemd without negative consequences. my concerns are therefore more about pushing change on users without having them at least be able to think about and accept the change rather than known difficulties
+17:45:33 <keithp> case in point; we have a hacked VPN on a machine that needed DNS to work before it could start; with sysvinit, ordering 'happened' to work. with systemd, it failed.
+17:45:39 <aba> I think changing the init systems should be as smooth as possible for those who want to have it done during upgrade.
+17:45:52 <bdale> aba: absolutely
+17:45:58 <jcristau> we installed insserv on upgrades, that also changed init script ordering
+17:45:58 <aba> but I don't think the default answer is "it should be done"
+17:46:22 <bdale> it should be easy, it should "just work", but even then something as fundamental as changing the init system seems like it probably deserves an interactive prompt to me
+17:46:28 <aba> as example, we didn't replace exim3 with exim4 on upgrades
+17:46:30 <keithp> aba: you can't run gnome without it
+17:46:32 <jcristau> and users are going to have difficulties if we don't switch to systemd by default because the sysvinit stuff is going to bitrot
+17:46:38 <aba> keithp: that's the sad part of it.
+17:46:50 <aba> keithp: I haven't yet made up my mind how to deal with that
+17:47:05 <bdale> it's pretty easy .. just don't run gnome
+17:47:15 <aba> jcristau: I agree we should have an recommendation that people should switch the init provider.
+17:47:17 <keithp> jcristau: there's a different issue -- eventually we expect most people to run systemd, but we need to give people a choice about when to switch
+17:47:22 <jcristau> aba: you're far more likely to have local config changes to exim than to /etc/init.d/rc
+17:47:45 <jcristau> they can choose when they upgrade to jessie
+17:47:48 <aba> but breaking mail is far less worse than breaking init.
+17:48:04 <aba> otherwise, I agree with keithp here
+17:48:06 <jcristau> we're fixing init
+17:48:14 <keithp> jcristau: changing is not the same as fixing :-)
+17:48:29 <jcristau> changing is not the same as breaking. aba said breaking.
+17:48:51 <dondelelcaro> but it may break things
+17:48:53 <keithp> jcristau: we may well break some local config, and init is fairly hard to fix if it really breaks badly
+17:48:54 <aba> the potential to breaking.
+17:49:02 <jcristau> dondelelcaro: it's a dist upgrade. of course it will break things.
+17:49:26 <bdale> as one simple example, if you have an fstab entry for a device that's not present at boot, sysvinit will whine but continue to boot .. systemd treats it as a dependency failure and stops the boot, right?
+17:50:03 <aba> well, e.g. Zugschlus is currently fighting to keep the root hard disk encrypted with systemd
+17:50:13 <aba> and it's really ugly if your system cannot decrypt root anymore
+17:50:15 <bdale> so, imagine someone with an out-of-date fstab entry trying to do a remote upgrade to jessie and ending up with a system that fails to reboot?
+17:51:02 <keithp> I've had constant problems with installing services that come un-configured, and systemd can't start them, so the postinst script fails
+17:51:33 <keithp> systemd doesn't (yet) support the usual ways of disabling services in debian
+17:51:40 <bdale> those sound like bugs that should get fixed, of course
+17:51:44 <keithp> of course
+17:51:58 <aba> but people should fail hard on detecting those
+17:52:02 <aba> + not
+17:52:06 <keithp> I couldn't figure out how to fix them though, because systemd didn't provide any way to use the existing /etc/default/<service> contents
+17:52:10 <jcristau> keithp: that sounds like a bug. not a fundamental problem that means we should leave dist-upgrade out in the cold dark sysvinit ages
+17:52:10 <bdale> aba: exactly
+17:52:16 <ansgar> aba: Hmm? Encrypted disks should work just fine as long as the initramfs mounts them (which you need for the root fs anyway).
+17:52:42 <aba> ansgar: I forgot details, but there is a bug report because one debian-extension is missing
+17:52:58 <aba> ansgar: and also it's just an example - I hope this specific one to be fixed before release
+17:53:03 <ansgar> aba: Yes, support for keyscripts outside of the initramfs.
+17:53:33 <jcristau> surely if you fail to decrypt /, it can't be systemd's fault, systemd isn't started yet
+17:53:38 <keithp> so, for jessie, I fear we'll release with bugs of this nature which cause systems to fail to boot with systemd
+17:55:11 <aba> looks like we have an agreement in the ctte but not in this #
+17:55:37 <dondelelcaro> I guess we just need to draft up some options, and see what the feedback is on this
+17:55:45 <dondelelcaro> does someone here currently want to take the lead?
+17:56:27 <ansgar> keithp: But will a later upgrade or non-upgrade be less painful? sysvinit->systemd upgrades will probably be less tested for jessie+1.
+17:57:11 <aba> ansgar: our recommendation should be that people change the init provider ASAP, and before jessie+1 (unless they want to stick with sysv-init)
+17:57:16 <keithp> ansgar: we should expect that as systemd matures that people naturally migrate to it over time, and that we have fewer non-systemd systems by jessie+1
+17:57:41 <bdale> and if not, sysvinit->systemd is even more important to get right for jessie+1
+17:58:10 <dondelelcaro> and presumably if the support for sysvinit has bitrotted by that point, it would be possible to require systemd before jessie+1 upgrade
+17:58:37 <bdale> seems reasonable to me .. this really is all about who's willing to do what work where and when
+17:59:03 <jcristau> what's wrong with getting it right this time?
+17:59:10 <keithp> jcristau: you have a month
+17:59:21 <jcristau> you have 6
+17:59:22 <aba> we're not sure enough (yet) that we get it done
+18:00:29 <keithp> jcristau: I would like to see the resolution occur before the freeze starts
+18:00:53 <dondelelcaro> I guess I can draft up some initial ideas here, and then we can see what sticks or gets shot down
+18:00:57 <bdale> so, to the question, I'm too overwhelmed by real life to take lead on this in the next month .. anyone else on the ctte here today want to volunteer to draft something?
+18:01:09 <bdale> dondelelcaro: cool
+18:01:19 <dondelelcaro> #action dondelelcaro to draft up initial points for sysvinit->systemd automatic upgrade question
+18:01:24 <dondelelcaro> #topic #750135 Maintainer of aptitude package
+18:01:48 <aba> I fear that was the one I wanted to do something and failed last month
+18:01:57 <dondelelcaro> aba: yeah; no worries
+18:02:27 <aba> I'll plan to do it this month instead
+18:02:30 <dondelelcaro> OK
+18:02:39 <dondelelcaro> #actui
+18:02:41 <dondelelcaro> err...
+18:03:06 <dondelelcaro> #action aba to propose a process to try out on #750135 Including the maintainer perhaps providing private response to us, and also perhaps an irc conversation
+18:03:09 <dondelelcaro> okie dokie
+18:03:15 <dondelelcaro> #topic Additional Business
+18:03:20 <dondelelcaro> anything else that I've missed?
+18:03:30 <bdale> not here
+18:03:34 <aba> none here
+18:03:47 <keithp> I'm off to another meeting...
+18:03:50 <aba> except that I try to notice the difference between DST between europe and us better
+18:03:57 * aba will go home now
+18:04:05 <dondelelcaro> aba: heh. I think we're all still in DST, right?
+18:04:06 <dondelelcaro> #endmeeting
\ No newline at end of file
--- /dev/null
+====================
+#debian-ctte Meeting
+====================
+
+
+Meeting started by dondelelcaro at 17:00:39 UTC. The full logs are
+available at
+http://meetbot.debian.net/debian-ctte/2014/debian-ctte.2014-09-25-17.00.log.html
+.
+
+
+
+Meeting summary
+---------------
+* Who is here? (dondelelcaro, 17:00:47)
+
+* Next Meeting? (dondelelcaro, 17:08:11)
+ * AGREED: next meeting is currently date -d 'Thu Oct 30 2014 17:00
+ UTC' (dondelelcaro, 17:12:26)
+
+* #717076 Decide between libjpeg-turbo and libjpeg8 et al.
+ (dondelelcaro, 17:12:48)
+
+* #636783 constitution: super-majority bug (dondelelcaro, 17:13:28)
+ * ACTION: Diziet to integrate text as asked by Matthew V
+ (dondelelcaro, 17:14:44)
+ * ACTION: Diziet to put resolution integrated text into git
+ (dondelelcaro, 17:14:53)
+
+* #636783 constitution: casting vote (dondelelcaro, 17:16:12)
+ * ACTION: Diziet to draft casting vote to 3 options: change to 9 with
+ casting, change to 9 without casting, FD (dondelelcaro, 17:16:37)
+
+* #636783 constitution: minimum discussion period (dondelelcaro,
+ 17:17:02)
+ * ACTION: diziet to draft a proposal (dondelelcaro, 17:17:18)
+
+* #636783 constitution: TC member retirement/rollover (dondelelcaro,
+ 17:17:28)
+ * ACTION: diziet to draft a proposal (actually for this one; the
+ previous was skipped) (dondelelcaro, 17:17:39)
+
+* #636783 constitution: TC chair retirement/rollover (dondelelcaro,
+ 17:17:56)
+ * ACTION: Diziet to draft TC election automatic trigger on new TC
+ member, and manual trigger by another TC member ? (dondelelcaro,
+ 17:18:17)
+
+* #681419 Depends: foo | foo-nonfree (dondelelcaro, 17:18:22)
+ * ACTION: dondelelcaro to finalize voting for #671418 and announce
+ decision (dondelelcaro, 17:19:30)
+
+* #741573 menu systems and mime-support (dondelelcaro, 17:19:53)
+ * ACTION: keithp to write up a ballot with iwj's content for that
+ option, new content for 5) and my content for 6 (dondelelcaro,
+ 17:40:15)
+
+* #762194 Automatic switch to systemd on wheezy->jessie upgrades
+ (dondelelcaro, 17:40:32)
+ * ACTION: dondelelcaro to draft up initial points for
+ sysvinit->systemd automatic upgrade question (dondelelcaro,
+ 18:01:19)
+
+* #750135 Maintainer of aptitude package (dondelelcaro, 18:01:24)
+ * ACTION: aba to propose a process to try out on #750135 Including the
+ maintainer perhaps providing private response to us, and also
+ perhaps an irc conversation (dondelelcaro, 18:03:06)
+
+* Additional Business (dondelelcaro, 18:03:15)
+
+Meeting ended at 18:04:06 UTC.
+
+
+
+
+Action Items
+------------
+* Diziet to integrate text as asked by Matthew V
+* Diziet to put resolution integrated text into git
+* Diziet to draft casting vote to 3 options: change to 9 with casting,
+ change to 9 without casting, FD
+* diziet to draft a proposal
+* diziet to draft a proposal (actually for this one; the previous was
+ skipped)
+* Diziet to draft TC election automatic trigger on new TC member, and
+ manual trigger by another TC member ?
+* dondelelcaro to finalize voting for #671418 and announce decision
+* keithp to write up a ballot with iwj's content for that option, new
+ content for 5) and my content for 6
+* dondelelcaro to draft up initial points for sysvinit->systemd
+ automatic upgrade question
+* aba to propose a process to try out on #750135 Including the
+ maintainer perhaps providing private response to us, and also perhaps
+ an irc conversation
+
+
+
+
+Action Items, by person
+-----------------------
+* aba
+ * aba to propose a process to try out on #750135 Including the
+ maintainer perhaps providing private response to us, and also
+ perhaps an irc conversation
+* dondelelcaro
+ * dondelelcaro to finalize voting for #671418 and announce decision
+ * dondelelcaro to draft up initial points for sysvinit->systemd
+ automatic upgrade question
+* keithp
+ * keithp to write up a ballot with iwj's content for that option, new
+ content for 5) and my content for 6
+* **UNASSIGNED**
+ * Diziet to integrate text as asked by Matthew V
+ * Diziet to put resolution integrated text into git
+ * Diziet to draft casting vote to 3 options: change to 9 with casting,
+ change to 9 without casting, FD
+ * diziet to draft a proposal
+ * diziet to draft a proposal (actually for this one; the previous was
+ skipped)
+ * Diziet to draft TC election automatic trigger on new TC member, and
+ manual trigger by another TC member ?
+
+
+
+
+People Present (lines said)
+---------------------------
+* dondelelcaro (79)
+* keithp (60)
+* bdale (42)
+* aba (27)
+* jcristau (13)
+* ansgar (3)
+* MeetBot (2)
+* KGB-3 (1)
+* cjwatson (1)
+
+
+
+
+Generated by `MeetBot`_ 0.1.4
+
+.. _`MeetBot`: http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot
projects / debian-ctte.git / commitdiff